I know, I fly in W-space as well... Usually I'm one of the people hunting trying to find w-space fleets to kill.

But never have I seen one with as much bling as any serious incursion runner.

Also I wasn't whining about losing incursion fleets... I was saying that one criticism of incursions is that they are "risk free" when in reality they are not. If your logi's bail/DC/suck/grief... You can lose billions of isk

Last proper targets we got were a couple of RR domi's (one navy issue one standard) in a C3... not that it's a big deal or anything.

But as you say C1, I remember me and a corpy did go into a C1 witha pair of Assault Frigs and scored a Rook kill... I know, nothing special, but was more for the fun of it.

But isn't the reward from your C5 wormhole sites a lot higher than incursion running?

The risk does match the reward. Because in a decent incursion fleet before you could male about 100 mill an hour... any higher and you were in one of those "elite" fleets.

Yes 3 logi's but most spend more on their logi ship so they can get more out of it. To get all 4 reps being T2 my guardian has a Bailey plate on it, which is more than 500 mill on it's own.

And still if those logi's go down you can be losing up to 8 deadspace and faction fit Vindicators, Nightmares, Machariels... And they will all die in seconds if the logi's are down...

How often do your fleets come under attack? I imagine being in your fortress of a WH system that you have scouts every where not to mention Warp disruption bubbles on any holes while your fleets are active.

Because the Incursion fleets are out in the open for anyone to attempt a logi gank. And they do try, with some success.

Go into a site by yourself then, after all its no "risk".

Because incursions exist solely in highsec...

Also, at some points, incoming dps in specific incursion sites can top 10,000 incoming dps, peaking at about 13k in a tcrc. You don't have numbers like that and not have a bit of risk, especially if you're a logi. It might not be other players shooting at you, but you're still depending on a group of logis who sometimes need machine-like efficiency to keep you alive. The same risk as running through gatecamps in nullsec? Not so much. But compared to ratting in your thanatos with nothing but blues for 30 jumps? I'm not so sure.

FYI, just because you are in wh space, does not change a bit his argument about null sec risk.
Furthermore just because you HAVE TO use triage carries does not make it risky per se. It just makes standards logistics unsuited for the job. Actually it makes me wonder why you just have to use a single triage carrier, are they not supposed to be way more effective in pairs?

Can you now please make a real argument?

So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too?

Let's try this again, the null/low sec Incursion runners have gone back (Hint: CFC Incursion group is dead now) to running Sanctums/Havens/Hubs solo in a Tengu because it's better ISK/h than Incursions, less risk and cost and we can still hang on comms because we're CFC wide, not just a public group.

Good enough you intellectually dishonest fool with an agenda?

Your intellectual/argumental fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Now tell, me where did I ever say that you had commented on that? I didn't? Oh I didn't, I asked you a question that you didn't want to answer, why? Why wouldn't you just answer the question? Got something to hide?

EDIT: Also, we've seen people in NPC corps running low sec Incursions, we killed them and drove them off, to answer your question.

In before "ohlololol it was troll u stupid testie huehuehue" to deflect any shortcomings of your posting.

Suicide ganking logi's and logi griefing are not risks... Oh thank the stars I never realised how easy we had it.

Fact is in the null and low sec incursions you are set up primarily for PVP and any threat you face you form up a fleet to fight. With your countless scouts that cover all the systems leading into the incursion areas.

Us in hi-sec need to form pug fleets now and again... and even in our established and trusted community some people can turn around and grief people just for the lols or to make a quick bit of pocket change.

So I'd say yes we do take risks... because we're not all part of the same alliance... Also I've done low-sec incursions a couple of times. I know they are a lot more secure than people make out... if they weren't so profitable why are they doing them is the obvious point to make.

As for the C5's i already essplained in another post... They have their system in lockdown before they start farming, camps on every wormhole leading in with bubbles up and most likely the hole sitting on critical. So the chances of them actually being attacked by a force that could do damage to them is highly unlikely. Also to the fact of if someone wanted to attack them they'd have to go through several other wormholes before finding a connection to the C5. Several holes deep. So the chances of a random roaming fleet finding you that far into the rabbit hole it's almost non existent risk.

If someone wants to grief a high-sec incursion fleet, they only have to open up their journal and set destination to the nearest one.

incurtion bear's? I run incurtions. Am i a bear?
What is it you do in this game? If you are not some ones alt. Then what the hell is up with your chest beating? To me you have 90 life time kills.... What is it you do in eve?

.

Apolyon I > I make 1b in 1h
Apolyon I > 350m in 5'
Gudda > how do you do that?
Apolyon I > I dont see it's boring
Gudda > gas mining?
Apolyon I > that's the difference between you and me
Gudda > so you make 1 billion in an hour
Gudda > and you are mad at somone making 1 billion in a day
Gudda > ?
Apolyon I > yep, I'm that *******

nerf wormholes?

Since the nerf, I'm on the remove Incursions bandwagon now!

And while your at it nerf WH and hisec too please.

Get rid of security status and make all of eve just like nulsec. With player corp empires that can wage war with NPC empires!

WH isk to ease ratio out of wack. NPC's in WH need to be harder!

We did dev blog about it, put it in patch notes and tell all the players the changes were on SISI, then we monitored the feedback and made changes again according to the feedback received from the Incursion community :) Bettik and I will continue to monitor the feedback and stats

maybe incursions were the balanced thing and everything else in eve is just unbalanced :O

Most of people in WH is isk farmers or carebears.
Most carebear in WH is one man (or 2) with large pos and 3-4 alts on dreadnought's.

Most of them pays game by PLEX.

Are you all f*****g gamblers ?

Money is made only in gambles ! Money is made only in gambles ! Is that the only thing that is in your head ?

RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !RISK = REWARD !

GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE ! GABMBLE !

No risk = No reward . Effort = Bullshit ! . Menagement = Bullshit ! Organization = Bullshit ! Trust = Bullshit !

Do you people even see how you look from a side ? Go play some Blink !

Well, not everyone that does incursions lives in K-space all the time. As I've said over and over, my alliance live in wormholes. We don't quite have your alliances infrastructure to make anywhere near as much profit from W-Space yet.

I substitute my income with incursions, I don't sit in a VG blitz fleet for hours at a time grinding. I do Assault and Headquarter, because I feel they are more challenging and enjoyable in general. I just wish there was more reward for our effort.

And no, we aren't all multi-boxing, most if not all fleet commanders I know have a strict policy against people duel boxing. (with exception of out of grid boosters for fleet bonuses)

W-Space isn't that dangerous if you prepare and are careful... we had an incident the other night where a K162 opened up into a C5. The people inside came in and chased down our Sleeper site running fleet. We managed to evade the large fleet they had with no loses. Keeping scouts on WH's and checking D-scan regularly isn't hard to do. If we had enough people online we would have fought them... but our numbers were about 1/3 theirs.

Please stop saying there is more risk in Null sec... you just confirmed that you are perfectly safe if someone does come across you in your system, that you are not likely to die... because you either don't do the sites or you bait a Hotdrop... which of those two options are a risk?

Is your alt going to turn on you and grief you? Is your alt going to refuse reps? is your alt going to warp out the logi squad so you die and get your stuff looted by his friends?

No, these things all happen in incursions. So much so that we have to keep a list of the assholes that do them, to protect ourselves against the risk of being griefed by can flippers, logi gankers, rep withholders and suicidal ECM'ers... Yes some people can do incursions for a long time and never be griefed. But you cannot say that the Incursion community is "Risk Free"

I've no problem with reducing the income per hour, but I just hate when people say "Risk Free" because it is definitely not risk free I lost a multi-billion isk fit Paladin because a Logi held back on Reps. Are you saying that was risk free?

I doubt there are many of us willing to argue that the previous system of farming VGs and ignoring everything else wasn't, at least in some way, broken. A 10 or 20% decrease in payoff is fair. Assaults and HQs should be our goal. Our problem here and the reason why CCP shouldn't "stick to their guns" is that this was far more than a pay decrease. It brought a risky, group-oriented activity on par with lvl 4 incomes which absolutely shattered the incursion community. It was improperly documented and their reasoning was not explained prior to the nerf.

Now, I am curious to see what your income would be like if you gathered 10 of your friends in shiny BSes and you blitzed anomalies all day. Eve is a game that rewards groups. Even in a "higher risk" (but not really) area, you should not be able to make more than a focused group of veteran players working towards a common goal.



Thank you for the update.

It's a pretty daily occurring to watch someone drop into or near armor on shield fleets. Perhaps not for a perfect fleet, but common fleets often feel the pressure of listening to your logis overheat on a BS. It's often the skill of the pilots around you that keep the fleet from chaos.

A few days before the nerf we had a node drop. Half of our fleet DCed during an OTA. Luckily, 2 basis stayed online. We had them close to burning out all of their mods but they managed to save the fleet. After 8 years of playing Eve, I have never relied so heavily on the skill and aptitude of another player. That was a moment of sheer camaraderie among complete strangers; an example of why CCP should model more of it's mechanics around Incursions.



This.

Your logic is completely faulty. First of all, you're trying to compare oranges to watermelons. Stop trying to compare solo anom farming in null to Incurions anywhere. One is a group oriented activity and the other isnt. Secondly, nobody put a gun to your head an made you join a null sec alliance. Any risk to you or your possessions in null is something you consented to when you made the choice to live there. Dont try to use that as some kind of justification for why Incursions in high sec should pay less than you can make per hr solo in null. Simply put your reward for the risk of null sec is the freedom of null sec. And since you brought up the topic of entitlement, why does your choice to live in unsecured space somehow magically entitle you to be at the top of the isk/hr pile?As far as I know Incursions in null still pay more than incursions in high sec, and anoms in null pay far higher than missions, and null sec ore is still worth more per m3 than the ore in high sec belts. So quit calling everyone else 'entitled' when your own entitlement is obvious. As for Concord there is risk there as well... i cant tell you how many accidental friendly-fire incidents i have witnessed. And having a couple shiny dps or one of your logi get concorded can really wreck your fleet.

The bottom line is that Incursions reward you for relying on your fleetmates and making a coordinated effort to complete your objectives regardless of any theoretical or implied risks and regardless of security status. Risk is almost completely irrelevant to this particular thread. The topic being discussed is essentially, "the challenges of operating a 10-12 man fleet vs compensation after the changes".

i cant tell you how many accidental friendly-fire incidents i have witnessed. And having a couple shiny dps or one of your logi get concorded can really wreck your fleet.